Better Get A Lawyer, Son - Justice (2)

Rob Carlton: Welcome back for the second half of our two-part episode, “Better Get a Lawyer, Son”, about the real-life experiences of male survivors of child sexual abuse pursuing justice through the legal system. In this episode, Adam and Jarad will share their stories, and we’ll hear more reflections from former Royal Commissioner Robert Fitzgerald, Professor Rita Shackel, and Professor Patrick O’Leary. Felicity Blake: Adam was sexually abused when he was seven and eight years old by two older boys, and then by a Catholic priest when he was 13 and 14. Later, in his adult years, Adam reported the abuses to the police. The two older boys pleaded guilty... but the priest did not. In a criminal matter, the case is ‘The Crown’ (that is, the government) versus ‘the Accused’, and the victim becomes a witness - perhaps one of several witnesses - in the Crown case. As part of this process, the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions will assign a Crown Prosecutor to run the case. Here’s Adam: Adam: My first Crown Prosecutor was amazing. I built a very good rapport with her very quickly. She was very comforting. She was very warm. She was super authentic. She loved what she did as her occupation. Felicity Blake: But for the other case against the Catholic priest (who had pleaded not guilty), Adam had to give evidence from the witness box, and was cross-examined by the priest’s barrister. This time, Public Prosecutions assigned a different Crown Prosecutor to the case. Adam: Going onto my to my second perpetrator, being in the box was the most fuckin’ brutal time of my life. If I thought I was a man before going through that, I was fuckin’ kidding myself because I had no idea. It shaped me for who I am today. It made me who I am today. It made me much more resilient without a doubt. I had my first initial meeting with this, this crown prosecutor from the DPP Newcastle. I never forget the day he turned up in his... in his sweat jacket. I knew he was going to Fiji on a family holiday. It was the most frustrating meeting that I've ever attended. He wasn't present, he didn't choose to be there. He was, I think he was out of his depth. He basically came, came to tell me that day that he wasn't going to run my case and then believe... I was made to feel like he didn't believe me, that I was lying. I was absolutely fucking devastated. I'll never forget that for as long as I live. Felicity Blake: When the complexity of the system led to confusion and communication issues, Adam turned to SAMSN for support. Adam: Craig came on from SAMSN online, I think there was seven or eight... There was eight individuals in this one meeting after after this gentleman got back from holidays. And we, you know, we got to the conclusion that he was going to run the case. So that itself was for me a huge, huge, huge disappointment around the DPP and how we were treated. Craig's been my rock he's been there for me umpteen times, I mean it. And I've got some great friends and I've made some great mates throughout SAMSN. What it was for me, the biggest thing I took away from it, it's a lonely old walk if you if you don't have people around you and even when you do have people around you I found that I found it to be a lonely old walk. It's it's hard, it's brutal. You know in your own heart you've done nothing wrong and then you're basically being accused of... it's like you're you're, you're the guilty participant in the whole exercise. So I believe the criminal justice system needs an overhaul 110%, know what I mean? Felicity Blake: There’s a strong possibility that the legal system in its current form is not actually capable of delivering a real sense of justice to survivors of sexual violence. Experts have started to explore other ways of restoring the balance in these cases. One of the things we DO know is that revenge doesn’t work. Professor Patrick O’Leary has interviewed male survivors about their anger and desire for retribution. Patrick O’L: And as one bloke I remember interviewing said, Yeah, I'm bloody angry for a bloody good reason. And that's exactly right. But what do you do with that anger? And where does that take you when you've got a very restrictive idea about masculinity? Where the idea of masculinity sometimes in that restrictive sense is, if someone does something to me, I need to do something to them, that that sort of revenge idea. And, you know, I think it's easy to buy into that. And often I've heard, you know, male survivors are what, you know, I wish I could have fought back or I, or some men have talked to talk about the, you know, the fantasy of revenge. Which, you know, I think is really an important conversation to have with men. For quite a number of years, I interviewed a number of men in Australia that had been responsible for murdering their perpetrator of sexual abuse. And unanimously those men regretted doing that. They regretted doing that because they felt that locked their whole identity into around the sexual abuse, and in a way let the perpetrator off the hook. They were left being held accountable for everything. And the perpetrator's out of the picture. They were very clear of their advice to other men that this wasn't something useful. But they were really clear to, advice to, professionals that when men express some sense of revenge, it's an important conversation. So, an important conversation to unpack, and a couple of those men had tried to have a conversation with a social worker or a psychologist, and largely been dismissed. You know, "you wouldn't do that." Or, you know, "that would be a silly idea." We shut down the conversation, that may have been a conversation that could have been quite transformative for them making sense of their anger, their sense of revenge. Because it's okay to feel some revenge. It's okay to feel some sense of wanting justice. But it's an important conversation to have. So I think, you know, I hadn't thought about that, those group of men that had interviewed many years ago who had, I'd interviewed in jail, and, you know, some had been in prison for for more than 20 years. You know, and that double edge of justice for them was immense. And they were so clear about, you know, that that act is not the act of a good person. And, you know, it was not congruent to who they wanted to be. Felicity Blake: Law Professor Rita Shackel... Rita S: Child sexual abuse is a crime. But the criminal justice system with all of its failings, and deficiencies, may not be able to adequately provide the different types of justice that victims and survivors may be seeking. And so it is important that we look at other ways to pursue justice for victims and survivors. And as I'm saying this, I guess I'm also reflecting on the fact that we need to understand what justice means for victims. Justice means different things to different people, one size doesn't fit all and so, we need to find ways of being responsive to a range of different needs, a range of different justice needs for different people. For some people, Criminal Justice will serve their justice needs. For other victims and survivors, they may need more of those safe spaces that we've been talking about, where they can tell their stories, they can share their experiences, they can choose who to share those experiences with, and they can also choose different ways in which perpetrators are held accountable for their actions without it being purely limited to to a criminal justice context or outcome. The Royal Commission was able in some respects to move towards a greater culture or expectation of accountability. I'm not sure that that was entirely achieved, I think I think we still have a very long way to go in terms of accountability. And maybe civil redress is a more effective channel for that accountability to be attained. Felicity Blake: Civil redress means seeking compensation privately through the court system. There’s also a National Redress Scheme, which can be accessed by people who were sexually abused as children specifically in Australian institutions. We’ll go into detail about that in our episode titled, ‘Respect’. Rita S: In terms of the criminal justice system, I think the challenges we were talking about previously mean, that accountability often isn't, isn't attained, or isn't achieved, because if if a case is started, and doesn't end up with a finding of guilty, which we know only occurs in a very small number of cases, many cases fall out of the system way before, before they even get to court. And certainly before a conviction is rendered, if indeed, conviction is rendered at all. So that undermines accountability, really, because offenders then are not held accountable at all. And I think that is problematic for victims and survivors, and that's why the the justice system may not be, the criminal justice system may not be the right avenue for justice, to be pursued. Because an outcome that does not involve conviction doesn't mean that the abuse didn't occur. But often, that's how it's understood. And that's, I think, devastating for victims and survivors. Rob Carlton: In previous episodes we’ve heard from Jarad, whose experience with the legal system formed a big part of his recovery from his childhood abuse. Here’s Jarad, he’s going to walk us through what that was like... Jarad G: And so I think, you know, I did disclose at 17. But that wasn't an overnight process. I didn't really actually start dealing with the abuse until I'd had my day in court. And I'd cried in counseling plenty of times, but it was because a girlfriend dumped me or I'd broken up with somebody and hurt them, or I couldn't deal with x, y, and z. And I don't know, a week or two after my court case, I was a child, on the floor, in a ball, just losing my shit. And you know, I remember my counselor getting down there on the floor next to me and resting her hand on my shoulder and saying, "There, there". And it sounds patronizing. But it wasn't like it was all she could do. She couldn't say anything else. She couldn't... There was no counseling. She just had to let me dissolve. And then as we started resolving things, finally I could delve into what had happened. For whatever reason it was, I couldn't, I couldn't deal with the emotional side of it until I dealt with the legal. I don't really know why that is, but it opened the door for me. And so I've been in counseling 10 years. But the steps I made between 27 and 30 were... it was like, that was all of the steps I ever needed to make. And I don't, yeah, I guess I've always been someone who's got a strong sense of fairness, or justice, I'm bothered by injustice. And at about 21, I just took a sick day off work. And I didn't tell anybody, and I, um, I drove to Parramatta from the Sutherland Shire, because we’d moved sort of that distance. And I kind of registered that I should go to the police station in the area where it happened, although, maybe I didn't need to, looking back at it. But at the time, that's what I thought I had to do. And I remember that day so distinctly, because I was like, incredibly anxious, and I had this little sports car that I like, loved to death. And I think I cut somebody off. I was, you know, probably pretty erratic in my driving and I actually had this like road rage incident on the way to the police station, where a guy, like, got out and punched my car and everything. But I just took myself off over to the police station and yeah, and reported it. I might have made a couple of phone calls beforehand, kind of sussing out what I should do without giving away who I was, or anything like that. So it was, it was sort of about four years between when I first disclosed, and I say disclosed, not confessed, because there's a very important distinction there. What had happened to me, and and then went to the police. And I don't really, again, I don't really know why I think I just had a strong sense that I needed, needed him to answer for it. And so I did that. It wasn't.... Again, it was a process, you know, that if I think about it, there's already two blocks, there of three or four years between some realization and disclosure, and then disclosure and reporting. And no one, no one pushed me or I'm not even sure if somebody had suggested reporting it. I think at the time, my parents, they weren't worried about that. They were just worried about me, you know, getting the help I needed and my psychologist was worried about keeping me alive. And I, you know, I did it off my own back. The first time I went I didn't actually make a statement, I just reported it. And it was a while before that was followed up. And then I think I made another kind of smaller statement, which allowed them to start investigating. And it wasn't until, you know, a little while after that I did a couple of big, you know, big sessions and a couple over, over a few days, not whole days, but a number of sessions, later on actually going into detail, and, you know, making, I guess, you know, making statements that were used in court. And I didn't have any police who dealt with things in a negative way. When I was making the first report, and the first statement before it was sort of an investigation, I, I talked to whoever was available, or whoever followed me up. But once it became something, it was consistent, which was great as well, it was not a million different people. He was my one point of contact until it went from the hands of the police to the DPP. And then, you know, then there was the contact from the DPP as well. But that was only at that, you know, only in that period before it actually went to court. But to get it to court, the threshold was quite high. So the police had done their investigation and got it so far, but the DPP kind of, you know, did the second round and dug deeper and asked more questions and, and really pushed. Which could have been traumatic because I think up to that point, The statement was all about me. I mean, obviously, I was asked detailed questions, but it was, it was kind of drawn out of me. Whereas the DPP, you know, had to be a bit more like, "We need this. Do you remember this? What's going on?" Like, what was happening with this, like, it was more pointed, it was more direct. Which, you know, reality is was a preparation also for court, like, they were asking the questions to get it there. But that was also how it was gonna be when I got to court. You know, I had a mental breakdown in my final year. I couldn't, the mental load of it. I was working full time, I was sneaking off, not telling anybody about these, you know, police visits that I was making, that were sporadic, because they were secretive. And so they would only happen when I found time for them. And when I made contact, really. And... Which was nice to have that control. So the court case was…yeah… Interesting is the wrong word, but I'm gonna say interesting, because I don't have I don't have another word for it. And I guess it's interesting, because there's this whole package of things that happened that were related to it. My parents were there. My mum's sister came, you know, and my mum had to had to front up, she had to go to the police and make statements as well. And she had to give evidence in court. And my siblings came, not every day. And I think, you know, I was kind of glad they didn't, they didn't come every day. But I think as a family, that kind of thing. Really, you know, we pulled together. And, yeah, I remember at the beginning of the week, there was... you'd walk out of the elevators and there was two courtrooms which, sort of, the doors were next to each elevator. Two elevators, big foyer, two courtrooms which were either side of the elevators. And then on the other side of the courtrooms at the end of the foyer, you know, were six or seven storeys up at the courthouse at Parramatta. You know, there were big panoramic windows and then little conference rooms off to the side of the foyer. And I remember the first time I saw the perpetrator, and his family, and I recognized him. You know, they came out of the lift, and I recognized him. And it was so confronting. So confronting. And, you know, they would have recognized us. His, you know, his parents knew my parents, they were neighbors, they weren't friends, they didn't spend time with each other, but they, you know, talked over the back fence as you do. But I was so intimidated by their family that we would go and hide in a little conference room. Down the end. Each day before the court was in session, before people were allowed in. And obviously I wasn't allowed in until I gave my testimony anyway. And neither was Mum. And so often it would just be me and Mum out there or you know, my dad or my sister in law, or my sister or my brother might wait out there with us while everyone else was in the courtroom. When I gave my testimony, only my support person was in there. I didn't really want my parents or my siblings to have to hear the graphic detail. I think I didn't want them to hear it either. You know, probably at the time, it was a little bit out of shame that I didn't want them to hear. But also, I knew it would be horrendous for them to hear it. And I didn't want them to hear it. I don't think that my mum or my dad should have to endure that detail. I know that had I asked for them to be in there, they would have. But I don't think it's fair to them or my siblings to do that. I mean, for me, and I wouldn't say that someone shouldn't have their parents in there, if that's what they wanted. I don't mean that as a judgment call. But for me, it didn't seem fair to ask them to do that. But I had a, I had a support person in there, and the court cleared everyone out. So it was the perpetrator, his legal team, the, you know, the state's legal team, my support person, the judge, and the jury, there was no one else in there, they cleared the courtroom when I gave evidence. Not when my mum gave evidence, or anyone else. But when I gave evidence, the courtroom was clear. Which was also great, because I could look at the lawyer from the state, I could look at his lawyer if he asked me questions. And when I answered, I normally answered to my support person. You know, I looked at him, and he looked me in the eye. And I would answer. And so it was a very, very safe environment. I was definitely protected, at least by the system. Obviously, it was difficult being cross examined. You can't sugarcoat that. And for some reason, in that legal framework, I don't know, I don't know what it is... I coped with talking about it. It was like I could separate it from myself, even though I knew I was talking about myself. And, and then I did that in, in the court in the courtroom, and I, you know, I was able to face down the, the lawyer from the, from his defence. You know, I'm probably fortunate in that I'd had a few years of university presentations under my belt, I was used to speaking in front of people, I was used to being nervous, speaking in front of people. You know, my dad's a pastor. And so I've grown up, you know, around public speaking, but it's not like public speaking. It's very, very different. And it's very, very personal. But, you know, I had somewhat had an awareness of an ability to, to speak in front of people. But it was difficult. It was very difficult. I'll skip ahead to the final day. On the final day after walking out of the courtroom, the roles switched. I sat down at the end of the foyer, we walked out first and then they walked out second. The family. And I sat and I stared at them. And my Mum said, "Oh, they're there, do you want to go into this little conference room?". And I was like: No, they can go, they can run away. And for me because of that week, I something had shifted. And I knew that he knew he was guilty. And I knew that his family knew. And it was like the last, the last little chink of it not being my fault and not being my problem. It not being me had somehow through that process fallen into place. And he did, he you know, I'll spoil it. Spoiler - He got off. It was a hung jury. He wasn't convicted, but he wasn't not convicted, which is actually, from what I know, a pretty good outcome. So many people are found 'not guilty'. But there was a hung jury. And so when I was staring them down, I was staring him down. And they left. They went and hid in a little conference room. And you know, and it's their problem now. It's his family's problem. It's his problem. And it's not mine. And they've got to deal with it. And that was, I just remember, for you know, first time in my life, I think I felt powerful actually. It was such a good feeling to stare him down. You know, and I could, I could walk past him on the street with no fear now. And as we left the courtroom, his wife stood up and, and yelled at me, "Go to hell!" Like, you know, none of his family, you know, believed, believe me and none of his side, believe me, although, to be fair, I think when she had such a strong reaction, and when they ran away to that little side room, I firmly believe that, you know, that that transfer of shame and her anger... I think she had a choice she could be, she could believe me, which meant that she'd married a pedophile. And I think, for self protection, or whatever it was she, you know, she chose not to, and his family chose to believe him as well. And I understand that you don't want to see the worst in, in your, your son or your spouse. Felicity Blake: Commissioner Robert Fitzgerald... Robert Fitzgerald: Child sexual abuse is the only crime in which nobody changes their mind, despite the evidence. Those that believed that he was, he could never do any wrong, use the word impossible, “Impossible, impossible!”. And they never vary. And those that think he was absolutely guilty never vary. And it doesn't matter what trials, what court cases, what's written, nobody changes their mind, with the exception of those that weren't sure. And it's the only crime that I know like that. The problem is not that. You can't change how people perceive these things. You cannot. And evidence doesn't do it. Let me tell you, evidence doesn't do it. But there are four responses that happen when you, when you, when a person that you know, a family member, a work colleague, somebody else that you know, is accused of child sexual abuse. The first is you will say, it is impossible. I know that person, he's a good man, he's the most popular teacher, he couldn't possibly have ever done it. I've lived with him, I trade with him, could not do it. Second one is, I'm not sure about that. But it's the victim, she or he is always making up things always, you know, causing troubles always, you know, playing around and mucking around with older boys or whatever it might be. third group says, I'm genuinely not sure. You know, they're a small group. And the last group says, I always thought there was something funny about that person, and I think he's as guilty as hell. So people that had been groomed by the perpetrator, who were the person to whom the child or an adult came back to report, was so convinced that the person couldn't have done it, it affected everything from that moment on, including the victimization of the child again. And so what we're doing now, as I said, I can't change your opinion, I can't tell you to think differently, I can't give you enough evidence for you to think differently. What I can say to you is despite all that, you let these processes follow through, you provide the support to the child, you do these things, and you don't do other things. And that way, you'll get to a much better outcome. And that's totally different to where we were 20 or 30 years ago. And so I think we have now learned better strategies. The one thing I don't think you can do is change people's opinions. I think, when they know the person that's been accused, but it is the most extraordinary crime where people's views don't change. And if you look at a high profile person in the media, you will see it exactly play out, just like I've said: he couldn't possibly have done it. It's impossible. It's the victim. They're making it up. I'm not sure. I think he's as guilty as sin. And three appeals later, nobody's changed their mind. I think however, there has been great progress, and they will continue to be progress going forward. But it's just a tough course, and I still am in touch with some people where their sons and daughters are victims and are parts of criminal justice process, and it is just almost tragic to watch the pain and suffering. And it's very hard to say to somebody, you should go through this process. What has changed, but I want to make this point, I said this to many people in private sessions: the fact that the police now investigate and go and knock on the door of the alleged perpetrator is a victory. Is a big victory. It's a huge victory. Even, it's finally you say to that person, we know what you did. The police go to the door with a knock on the door. And they say to that man to his face. "We know what you did." That is so remarkable compared to what would have happened to a young person, or a person 30, 40 years ago. So people would say well, you know, these are low, low victories. No, they're not. They’re big victories. Because previously they would have lived their whole life, having done terrible things, and never have been confronted by anybody. Now they are. That's a big step. If they get to court, terrific. And if we do start to see conviction rates increase, that will be very significant. But I just want to make the point, the adversarial system is a tough system. And really all the changes in the world won't make it much less tough going forward. And part of that is because we do have a system that basically says you are innocent until proven guilty. And that's a high threshold, it's beyond reasonable doubt. It's not balance of probabilities. It's not like redress schemes. It's not like civil matters, it's beyond reasonable doubt. And when you've got a child and adult and the abuse took place, 30 years ago, or 20 years ago, that's a very high threshold. And the court system will never change that particular threshold. So it's always going to be tough, but I just say to every man and woman who's been abused, who’s had the courage to go through that process, and is still standing at the other end, we owe you in enormous debt of gratitude, and always will and will never remember, never forget what you've done in doing that. And for future victims, you know, I think it'll be a slightly easier road, but it'll still be tough. Jarad G: It's like an oil well, your trauma. As much as I've dealt with it, you know... And I don't see my counselor regularly anymore. But the last session I did, you know, ostensibly to talk about going through the relationship breakdown, ended up with me talking about what happened when I was a child. And so there's that... I recognize that the trauma sits like a bit of a well. But the beautiful thing about the court case, and then that's that sort of, I would say that three year period between 27 and 30. Afterwards, is that I capped that well. It wasn't, up to that point, it was like this ocean that was raging inside of me that I couldn't control and would come out in unpredictable ways. And the emotion of it would destroy relationships and all my coping mechanisms were super unhealthy. But when I went through that three years following the court case, and I kind of put the cap on it, it wasn't that the coping mechanisms stopped straightaway, but I was able to actually go "Ugh!" and put this cap on things and know what things were, and know how to deal with emotion. And, you know, I, yeah, it changed everything. And for me, and it won't be like this for everybody. I know that. But for me, the key was that legal avenue. Closing Credits - Rob Carlton: SAMSN is the only specialist charity in Australia dedicated to helping all male survivors of child sexual abuse and their families. Each year, SAMSN provides free services to hundreds of male survivors and their supporters. SAMSN believes that male survivors of child sexual abuse can recover and thrive. Help him believe. Donate today. Visit: samsn.org.au (that’s s-a-m-s-n).org.au Remember to rate and share this online, because it helps others - especially survivors - to find it. Felicity Blake: STRONGER was created for Survivors and Mates Support Network entirely remotely during the pandemic of 2020 and 21. It was produced and directed by me, Felicity Blake of The Dove Media, with Julie Blyth of SAMSN. Our Executive Producer is Craig Hughes-Cashmore. Interview help from Les Spencer and Shane Greentree. Audio editing by Dion Brooks. Transcript assistance from Dr Anna Kamaralli and Melanie Teychenne-King. A big “thank you” to our co-host and SAMSN Ambassador, Rob Carlton. Very special thanks to all 32 of our participants; your insights make others STRONGER. [ENDS]